0:00:00 – Opening
0:04:20 – Tony Herbert, “Soldier”
2:31:09 – Final thoughts.
2:48:27 – How to stay on THE PATH.
2:59:12 – Closing Gratitude.
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Jocko and Echo, I was listening to Podcast 274 on an afternoon jog , and you guys were discussing being “right” but not at the same time… One thing we’ve used many times in the police world is “we might have the right to do it, but that doesn’t make it the right thing to do”.. I thought that might be a good way to put what you guys were talking about. Thanks for the excellent content!
The thing that really strikes me about this whole situation is that by the time the Vietnam War happened, American military leadership in Vietnam had grown arrogant to the point of delusion, and draftees, who didn’t want to be there in the first place could clearly see the hypocrisy and that they were just tools to advance the careers of some of these officers. Who would want to die so some arrogant bastard could get another ribbon on their uniform, or another star, or the next award or promotion? By that time, the true American warrior spirit had been subsumed by men who were intoxicated with power, and who had no interest or business being in or commanding combat battalions.
Tony Herbert’s predicament was that he was from another generation, and was in a whole other category really, of men who were dyed-in-the-wool, down to the DNA made to be warriors. Men who answer destiny’s call like Herbert can not survive in an environment of fakes and phonies who have all but taken over control. By the time he got into Vietnam, it was too late. He was able to make his own battalion badass, but powerless to stop the corruption everywhere else, and when he tried they character assassinated him, dragged him through the media mud, falsely accused him, all to save their own egos. It happened all the time, and still happens today.
What I appreciate about Herbert was that he was just such a no shit kind of a guy, to a fault sometimes. He could be so black and white that he could get judgmental and self-righteous, but despite those faults, he wasn’t wrong when it came to how an army should be. As far as warriors go, he was the top 1%. I think he just didn’t have the wisdom to understand the complex circumstances of the times and how to “render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar’s,” while maintaining his own integrity as a commander.
This is related to both episodes. I’m not on any Social Media anymore (I use to follow you on Facebook & participate on the 0430 wake up/workout session but I am totally off any Social Media because it took up too much of my time and social media seems so nefariously “controlling” and I don’t like being controlled so, yeah, I’m off Social Media) so this is my only way to contact you on your recent podcasts, 273 & 274. I was originally going to just clarify some terms for Echo but these 2 podcasts morphed into philosophies discussed by both you and Echo in the podcast caused me to respond with my form of what I call “Public Journaling.” (Journaling my thoughts in a public discussion, which the receiver, yourself, probably discards when he receives it. )
First, Soldier is my favorite book (read it the first time, have read it 4 times). Soldier was the book that started me on my journey to becoming a Soldier and Leader myself. Soldier and LTC Herbert was a thorn in side of the Army in the 70’s as About Face & COL Hackworth was a thorn in the side of Army in the 80’s. I am about 12 years older than you and one of the many differences between you and me is that while I do share the Warrior Spirit you have, I entered the Marine Corps during the Post-Vietnam era and being in the military was seen as a negative by the youth of my generation. As a result, I kept that spirit subdued because saying you wanted to experience the Warrior lifestyle was a way to be ostracized socially, so I kept my desire to be an Infantryman quiet and never let any of my social circle know I joined the Marine Corps until the day I left for Boot Camp. I found out how anti-military my community was (Encinitas, California) after I graduated from Boot Camp when almost all of the people I grew up with (with the exception of 1) did, in fact, ostracize me. Good! I learned I had one good friend and I could also just be proud of who I was; a Marine. The anti-military attitude would change over the years as President Reagan & Chairman John Vessey transformed the military into an organization of respect again. In fact, I suggested Soldier to you on FB Messenger about 3 or 4 years ago, when I started doing the 0430 wake up with your Facebook Group. After your podcast, I have started reading my tattered volume of Soldier for the 5th time. Interestingly, while I have the words from the book practically memorized, I found your recitation on Herbert’s life growing up to be more interesting than I recall and I am spending more time reviewing LTC Herbert’s early life than just reading through that part of the book as fast as I can.
But I thought I would share, with Echo, the origins of the terms that piqued Echo’s curiosity; Guerilla & Fragging. As you pointed out the term Guerrilla is a “part-time” or undercover soldier working in enemy territory. The origin of Guerrilla comes from the Penninsular War in Spain (1808 to 1814) Where the Spanish, Portugese and the British fought against Napoleon’s French Army and Guerrillo’s – Spanish “Irregular Soldiers” were used extensively to help defeat the French. That is where the term “Guerrilla” comes from. On a side note, the term “Commando,” which militaries of the world equate with elite soldiers, comes from the British military experience fighting the Dutch farmers/settlers of South Africa in the 1890’s. The Dutch would very much kick the living dog crap out of the British when the first Boer (the Dutch term for Farmer) War occurred. The Boers would form informal military units called Commandos whenever they faced threats from the various African tribes in the area they settled of South Africa. So when the Dutch in Europe lost a trade war with the British, the British got South Africa and ended up fighting the Dutch (who called themselves Afrikaaners). Why is the term Commando related to Guerrilla? Because Commandos are the main soldiers that go behind enemy lines and train Guerrillas. Guerilla’s can also be considered Militias or Partisans. The French Resistance during World War 2 against the Germans were Guerrillas. The NVA trained the Viet Cong, the Green Berets trained the Montangnards and the Hmong during the Vietnam War. The Iranian Quds Force, along with Fedayeen Saddam and former Iraqi soldiers were the commandos who trained the insurgents trained the Iraqi Insurgency during the recent conflict in Iraq.
While the killing of your own leadership by subordinates has always occurred in war, the origin of the term “Fragging” was specific to the Vietnam War because of the primary weapon used to kill small unit leaders. The weapon used mostly during the Vietnam war was the M67 FRAGmentation Grenade, so that is where the term “Fragging” originates. Fragging is a major reason the American Military went to an All-Volunteer force in 1975 because there was a HUGE increase in Fragging during the Vietnam War. At the beginning of the Vietnam War, most of the American Combatants were experienced volunteers; well-trained professional soldiers that were trained & wanted to fight. As the war wore on, the population of military volunteers went down due to combat attrition or by getting out of the military. By 1968, the war in Vietnam became increasingly fought by Draftees; Soldiers who had been forced by law to serve in the military. So by the time LTC Herbert got to Vietnam, many of the Soldiers are Draftees who don’t want to be there and have to be forced to fight, forced to be disciplined and are in conflict with the Officer Corps in Vietnam, who are still mainly Volunteers and find the environment very hard to accomplish their military mission. When you read the book Soldier, you realize a major reason WHY the U.S. Military went to an All-Volunteer force after the Vietnam War. &, in my opinion, during our entire conflict in GWOT, our military maintained a motivated solid professional posture during this conflict as compared to the conflict in Vietnam because our military is voluntary (even when you have been “Volun-told”) As another side note Echo, if you remember the law, when you turn 18, you are required to go down to the post office and sign up to be conscripted as a Draftee in the military. That law is put into place in case the U.S. gets in another major war like World War 2.
There were many reasons atrocities happened in the Vietnam War, none of them morally excusable or justifiable. 1. The Vietnamese conducted War that way. The Viet Cong were notorious for committing war crimes against the civilian population, even before Americans increased their involvement in Vietnam. As a result, many American soldiers de-humanized both the enemy and the civilian population they were assigned to protect. So American soldiers would see Vietnamese civilians as less than human because it seemed that the Vietnamese didn’t care about each other and treated each other as less than human. This made it easier for Americans to rationalize de-humanizing the Vietnamese & rationalize committing war crimes. 2. The American soldier couldn’t trust the population, so in frustration, they committed atrocities. Civilians would lie to American soldiers, either because they were under threat from the Viet Cong or because they didn’t like Americans. Children would run up to Americans and they would have explosives that would kill Americans. As a result, it was a very dangerous and stressful environment to be a soldier. 3. Because so many Americans were killed with booby traps and died as a result of booby traps or sniper attacks, where the Viet Cong used Hit & Run tactics where you never faced your enemy, often times, an American unit would take out revenge on the first group of Vietnamese in a village they came upon during their daily patrols. They would take out their frustration because they would rationalize it by saying to themselves, “Some of these people are VC who probably set up the booby traps.” 4. Because the U.S. military relied heavily on Draftees to conduct the war after 1968, due to U.S. Military attrition, Draftees didn’t care and had little incentive to protect civilians and also fostered an overall resentment towards the Vietnamese population (“Why don’t the Vietnamese fight their own Damn War! Why do we have to fight it for them!” attitude) which is another reason the U.S. went to an All-volunteer force after Vietnam. I have seen some interviews with LTC Herbert. He stated it all depended on the Commander. If a Commander ordered and then enforced a “No War Crimes” policy, there usually weren’t any war crimes committed in that AO (Area of Operations) However, you have to realize, A Battalion Commander was only on a 6 month Command Tour (Ridiculous!) So the next Battalion Commander might not emphasize adherence to the Laws of Land Warfare.
Further on in your podcast, you and Echo discussed the post-war controversy surrounding LTC Herbert and the conflict with his chain of command, particularly with the Comments made by Major Grimshaw where he comes into conflict with statements made by LTC Herbert. I tried very hard to investigate more into the controversy surrounding Herbert, Grimshaw and Herbert’s chain of command (COC); Franklin and Barnes. I couldn’t draw enough information to discern what was the basis for Grimshaw’s accusations that Herbert wasn’t telling the truth. What I believe is that Generally, LTC Herbert told the truth about what he witnessed & the Grimshaw/Herbert inconsistency revolved around one incident. I guess the only conclusion I can draw from Herbert’s conflict with his COC is how they lived their lives after. LTC Herbert would receive his PHD in Psychology, become a respected member in his community and have a strong enough reputation to work with the local police department in Colorado. I don’t know what happened to Barnes. Colonel Franklin was relieved of his command in Vietnam, after LTC Herbert left due to incompetence and would later go to work for Wall Street in the 80’s after he retired from the Army, then subsequently be convicted of Securities Fraud in the 90’s and serve 5 years in prison. I think LTC Herbert came out ahead in the end. Enjoyed the podcast, take care.
273 and 374 were great! I am trying to locate a copy of this book. It seems to be very difficult to find, any suggestions?